Grasping for the Wind

I like inventive swearing, like "by Thordin's balls!" or something similar. D--n and B---ch are not so bad, as they can translate into most cultures. F--k and C--t just piss me off, and I think an author has taken the easy way out. I mostly read fantasy fiction and I think their are more entertaining ways to swear. "Pizzle" is an awesome work and sounds better than D--k. (I may have spelled it wrong, but you get what I am saying.) One word is amusing and one word is jarring.
The C word can depend on location and usage, as in the British version of early slang, so it depends on the novel.
Interesting discussion, as I had not really thought too much about it.

I heard a wonderful interview with Dead Wood writer/creator David Milch on NPR recently. He was asked why all the excessive swearing in Deadwood (which, if you haven't seen it, has its own very complex language that is almost Shakespearing in it's ornateness but is also full of cursing). His response was to cite a scholarly work, the title escapes me, on the language of the old west. The history was that frontier's men tended to swear often because of the immediacy and urgency of a lot of their lives, but, and this is interesting, if they were literate, the only books they were likely to have seen were the plays of Shakespeare and the Bible, hence the combination of ornate, baroque language and foul language was actually, uh, dead on in Deadwood.

Swearing is something that you are not likely to miss the lack of, unless as you say, it is a modern day sort of thing. I think authors use swear words whwen they want to write gritty works. Many times, artificial swear words such as a god's name just sounds odd. In the movie A Knight's Tale, one of the characters used "fong" (actually overused) to a comic effect.

I've never read a book that had swearing and then thought to myself afterward, "this book really ought to have had some swearing in it."

Lou - I would love that article if you can find it.

My one point would be that since Deadwood is based on old Westerns, I think it classifies as urban or historical fantasy. Those would be two subgenres of fantasy in which I think that swearing (to a certain extent) would be okay because it is realistic.

The wife and I were discussing this last night and we both agreed that if a context calls for it, we are okay with swearing, such as in realistic fiction or old Westerns, etc.

But I think in fantasy (with some exceptions) it is less necessary because by its very nature it does not require realism.

Of course, when looking for grittiness, swearing is a useful tool. I've know authors who use swearing in theri books because the character called for it and it made sense.

But mostly it is wholly unnecessary. And the choice of words could be more careful. As Stormy is saying, some words are more offensive than others. So an author should be careful in their choices.

Hi John:
The Milch wasn't an article, but a radio interviewed aired on NPR. You might be able to find it streaming or podcast by going to NPR.org and searching Milch though. I found it fascinating. Particularly his assessment of television and his attempts to write up, not down, to his audience.

You know, on the use of your word "realism": I'd say that, even in fantasy, stories need to be internally consistent and work by their own logic. I think that Joe achieves a level of realism in his work - and this is his stated intent - by portraying his fantasy "heroes" as real people who are flawed, selfish, short sighted, stubborn, etc... as opposed to cardboard heroes.

Lou - I think you are right about Joe Abercrombie. However, realism does not have to mean swearing. But again, I understand this is up to authors to determine what "realism" is for them and their audience. Abercrombie certainly made his characters real to me (I love the book!) but I think the swearing was not needed. I think he would have been fine doing it to a certain extent, but not with as much prevalence as he did.

I want to reiterate that my opinion is just that and that the inclusion or lack thereof does not make a book better or worse as a piece of literature, only I wanted to show the effect swearing has on me as a reader.

I have read some really awful books with no swearing and the lack of it didn't help matters.

In fact, my wife mentioned a western she recently read that lacked it, and therefore seemed unreal to the point where she lost interest. But that is a western.

In fantasy, I like to think that an author, because he is NOT constrained by reality, can be more creative and need to rely less on swearing and more on writing ability to get across the flawed, selfish, stubborn nature of his characters.

John,
I didn't mean to conflate swearing with realism - that was a separate point in my mind. I do take your point re: swearing, and I also admire the way you admit that what works for one person might not another. It does occur to me to mention by way of example that there is only a single use of swearing in the entire original series Trek, Kirk's "Let's get the hell out of here" after the death of Edith Keeler, which is all the more powerful for its sparing use/singularity.

Lou - I agree. Judicious use of swearing can have excellent effect if done well. Overuse can destroy a book/movie/show for some people. It is a delicate balancing act.

Then there is the fact that some words are considered more heinous than others in our culture. f-ck and c--nt are more offensive than d--mn or h-ll. I told my wife I cam across c--nt recently and she was surprised that a book would use a word so obviously offensive to women in particular.

It comes down to balance I guess. And what is good for the goose ain't always good for the gander.

As I reader I have moderate tolerance and can even take the more offensive words in small doses (which is why I am ok with Abercrombie's book) but at the beginning of reading I was afraid this would be another instance of overuse. It isn't fortunately, and the story is so good it doesn't matter overmuch.

I neglected to mention earlier the use of Chinese curses in Firefly/Serenity. Which I thought was ingenious. I don't know whether it would offend Chinese speakers - my wife, who is from mainland China - couldn't understand Nathan Fillion's accent enough to know. But it underscores a point about context. The aforementioned C word is pretty offensive here, but rather innocuous in Britain. Whereas the stereotypical British "bloody" that American's always toss around when trying to emulate British speak, is actually a lot more serious over there than we realize.

That is interesting about Firefly. I didn't know that and never really noticed it. As I said, culture has a lot to do with what is considered swearing, so our backgrounds and rearing and knowledge and even country (as Lou said) have a lot to do with what is considered offensive.

Publishers will need to take that into consideration when publishing in other nations. Brits and USA are close enough, but try some of the stuff we let slide in China or Japan and it could mean trouble.

So what is a reader to do? My own problem is the jarring I get and the fear for children who pick up seemingly harmless books. I think the second reason is why I would call on publishers to be as careful as possible. Censorship isn't always bad, and anyone who says different thinks that an original manuscript of an author is the exact same thing that is printed and sold, and it just ain't so.

But don't be overly sensitive. That is why the Christian book market is so blah. The characters aren't real because they don't behave in a real fashion. Good writing will always trump cleanliness except in the most extreme of circumstances.

Parents also have a responsibility to be careful, especially if their children are big readers. Fortunately a lot has changed since my childhood and there are plenty of good YA fantasy books out there.

So perhaps I just need to get over it? I won't hand my child GRRM or Abercrombie or Miller or Goodkind etc. but that doesn't mean I, as a thinking adult can't enjoy these books.

Hey John,
Cheers for the review, and I'm glad you liked the book, in spite of the swearing. An interesting discussion, and it's a tonic to see folks on the internet talking about this type of thing without frothing at the mouth one way or the other. You're completely right when you say that, ultimately, it's a question of personal preferences.

I particularly like the line - "I have read some really awful books with no swearing and the lack of it didn't help matters."

Hope you don't mind a link, I've put some of my own thoughts down here:

http://www.joeabercrombie.com/2007/09/zounds-swearing-in-fantasy.html

Not so much a response to what you've been saying in particular, as to some of the more general opinions I've seen expressed around and about, but it touches on some of the same points, still.

John,

I wrote up a bit of a response over at my own blog. Swearing in Fantasy is always something I've had a pretty strong opinion about, so it's nice to see someone else taking up the discussion.

I don't particularly agree with you, but you might be interested to see why HERE.

~Aidan
A Dribble of Ink

I posted this response to Joe over at his blog.

Thanks for your thoughts Joe. I agree that the writer has to decide for himself what is too much and what is just the right amount.

I know from my few visits to London that swearing is much more acceptable and common in England than it is in the United States. So for readers in Britain, this might be less of an issue. Those of us stateside are a wee bit more sensitive.

I also like that you point out that this is how you speak, and therefore how you write. That makes good plain sense.

Your books are not an example of overuse of swearing. I felt that some characters swore who didn't have too and that perhaps some did unnecessarily, but didn't feel you pushed the limit.

Overuse would be something like using the swear words two or three times in the same sentence. So much so that the meaning of the sentence was lost in the story.

Fantasy doesn't have to have Victorian language to be good, nor does it have to by wholly clean.

I would say, (no slight to you mother) that the honesty argument can be used by people who simply want an excuse to be crass. But if a good author like you uses it, than anyone can, so an author should be careful about using that as a starting point for his reasons for using swearing.

Good points though, I was writing from the reader' side and realized later that perhaps I forgot to take in the author's side as well. You did that excellently. Thanks.

You nailed my argument well Aidan. I think that there just needs to be balance. Authors should write the character and use language that is appropriate to situation. They should also think about audience and take that into account as well. I would not hand GRRM to my children, but I might hand it to a friend. I might hand Abercrombie to a college student, but would shy away from giving it to a middle schooler. Audience has effect, even if the author simply is trying to write to be honest.

A lot of this stems from my beliefs and my judeo-Christian heritage, as I mentioned in my article. So what is not okay for me will be okay for someone who was raised or believes differently. That makes sense. I still think that no matter what one believes, there can be overuse of swearing to the point that no one enjoys the novel. Or only a limited audience anyway. Abercrombie does not fall into that trap, for which I am grateful (since his book is so good!)

I love GRRM's books. I find them disturbing, provocative, and extremely well-written. Would I take a care who I recommend them too? Yes. Will I stop readin them just becasue of swearing? No, because that is not all a story is. It is one element only.

Said Joe on Aidan's blog: I don’t have much to say about Joe’s article or yours (except that I agree and the swearing should be appropriate for a - the audience, b - the writer, c - the setting, d - the story), but I was thinking about Chaucer and his Canterbury Tales.

I took a class on Chaucer in college and one thing that I noticed, and was pointed about by the professor, was that Chaucer’s work is very ribald, laced with profanity, references to genitalia, puns on genitalia, and so on and so forth…and while Chaucer is telling stories set more or less in his era, his era was not too far off some of the medieval times epic fantasy is aping.

To Joe Sherry: remember that Chaucer was trying to ridicule the class and society in which he found himself, hence having characters say or do things that normally wouldn't have happened in polite society. Of course, we romanticize medieval culture way too much just as the medievals were guilty of romanticizing King Arthur. Or the Romans the Greeks. All cultures are blind to the reality of the dirt muck an filth of the history.

I like Abercrombie because that is essentially what he is trying to show. He is tearing down those preconceptions and romanticization of fantasy. Does he swear more than I'd like? Perhaps. But his characters call for it too a certain extent in order to ridicule the romanticizing of the medieval setting so many fantasies fall into. So call Abercrombie the new Chaucer for our genre. I think he'd like that.

Uh, his editor wouldn't mind that.
His editor once embarrassed his highschool English teacher by his choice of Shakespeare to read aloud before the class, btw.
I like Tim Lebbon's point that none of this is actually "English." Words like sword, halberd, cuirass would need fantasy equivalents too...

Lou - Just as an FYI, you were comment number 555 on this site. Thanks for bringing me to such an arbitrary number (its high though, which is cool).

Joe mentioned he'd like being called the Chaucer of our genre at Aidan's site. Nice to see we agree.

I have heard it said that in the context of a story about people living in modern times, having the presence of swearing makes the characters who would have been the type to do so were they real people more believable.

However, if a realistic story was about characters whose real-life counterparts may be inclined to swear, and the addition of swearing into the character's fictional dialogue makes the story more realistic, then it _must_ be true that choosing to not write in the swear words where it was thought applicable would result in a less believable story. However, this latter assertion is simply false. It is entirely possible to write a believable story, even about for example high school gangs, without the use of any profanity whatsoever. Rarely does one feel, for example, upon reading a good book that they might have found the story more believable if certain characters were swearing more often. Thus, the premise that swearing somehow makes a story more believable is provably false.

In the end, I would conclude that the use of profanity to allegedly add any so-called "realism" to a fictional story ultimately amounts to little more than laziness on the part of the author. I would consider it to be the "fast food" of fiction, in that it's quick and easy and there's very little work involved in doing it, but like fast food lacks nutrition, resorting to profanity usage in fiction also shows lack of any real depth of thought into the development of the story.

I totally agree with your article. I am a full-time student, but I'm older than the typical student --31, almost 32. Currently, I am taking a Fiction Writing I class, and several of my classmates have habitually turned in short stories that are well, riddled with foul language. I stumbled upon your article, read it, and agreed with it. I am sick of encountering foul language in what should be enjoyable reading, and I'm trying to find a "nice" way to tell my classmates this when it comes my turn to speak regarding their story (our class is like a workshop). I am also a Christian and find certain words offensive. Got any advice for me as to how to approach this? I certainly don't want to appear as a prude.

Your best bet is too be honest, state your point of view and also
explain that while you don't enjoy swearing in fiction, you also see
the point. Although I dislike it, I also know it has its uses. You
could point to how the rare swear word can actually be more effective
than constant swearing. Also point to the fact that swearing is only
useful in places where it makes sense, (Epic fantasies don't need it,
or can use made-up words).

Just say why you disagree, make sure it connects to the other person's
writing in a specific way, and explain when you feel it is
appropriate, then you might not be derided as a prude.

I spent a lot of time discussing this at the Westeros Forum, where
many folks had responded to me. This might help your research.

Westeros discussion on swearing in fantasy.

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